Moderated by Michael Laskow
Panelists: Jim Thacker, Patty Boss, Greg Carrozza, Matt Vander Boegh, and John Pearson
Michael Laskow: Patty, how about you? Do you have any tips on being that person that people want to co-write with, collaborate with, and libraries will call back?
Patty Boss: For a long time, I didn't do any collabs because I thought it would be simpler. I'm doing cues, you know, instrumental tracks would be simpler for the PRO stuff, to just not have to have any splits. But then I found some great songwriters here [at the Road Rally]. Well, I do actually a lot of lyrics, which is not really song lyrics, it's prose. So, I used to write a lot of poetry and get some stuff published. And I have, I had, I still have this huge backlog of words. And so a couple years ago, I started handing off a little bit of that to one co-writer, and I loved the process, because I wasn't even in the studio. I think in general, if somebody is inspired by maybe, maybe they just want to work with you, because they’re maybe just your friends, or they like being around you and, or and, or they like something they hear. I mean, some of this is kind of obvious. If they hear something you've done, it might inspire them to do, like I've had people say, hey, let's do a co-write. I like that track you made, and I want to write lyrics over it, or a melody or something like that. But in terms of the libraries that I'm already in, they sort of shortlist people who are getting placements, that they're getting material from that's working for them, and they're providing it to the supervisor.
I want to underscore that point a little bit. Giving the libraries music that's right for their clients. That makes you lovable.
Patty Boss: Yeah, I mean, you know, in some, they're doing half the work, so they deserve half of that money. You know, they're doing all that leg work. But if you're kind of hitting on a certain genre or something, and they're able to please their music supervisors that they're providing music to, then when they need that stuff, they already know it's kind of working just kind of like a way a river forms a groove in the ground. Just gets deeper. But the other half of that answer really is, don't aggravate the people you're working with. I'm sure I've done this by accident, but, and I'm talking about the information, the administrative part of it, you send in a track, and you didn't do something in the publisher's little word doc guidelines like make sure in this particular field for the metadata you put this particular type of information. And different library owners where you use different metadata fields differently sometimes, so, if you don't do something right, you're wasting their time, and they might not want to keep working with you.
“I guess what many people don't realize because we're artists, is that we are also our own business. You have to treat it that way, like you are a business. You have to do business things.”
So, it doesn’t matter how good your music is, if you do that once, you're in the dog house. If you do it twice, you could be dead to them.
Yeah, and that's another reason. I know several music supervisors, and I could probably send them some tracks. But actually, TAXI’s screeners are doing you a favor, because what they're doing is they're saving your reputation. Because what if you're kind of in a hurry, you know, I'm going to try to send this in for this listening, but you’re not fulfilling the requirement totally. If you tried to send that to a music supe— or even a library—in some cases, if you mess up, they're going to be like, “Oh, this guy's dumb.” Or they can't follow instructions. They're going to remember that you're, you know, aggravating them.
Greg Carrozza: I guess what many people don't realize because we're artists, is that we are also our own business. You have to treat it that way, like you are a business. You have to do business things. You have to communicate effectively and timely. You have to follow instructions, you know, things like that. But what I was going to say is why I might be on the precipice of that inner circle as you’re saying, it is that I've come to realize that I'm just too vain to fail. I would just be too embarrassed tohave been a failure when I attempt to do something. I saw a movie one time. I'm forgetting the title of it, but there was a character who said, “Don't half ass it.” I really take that to heart, and I decided that if I was going to do this, I’m not going to fail at it.
But I think it goes beyond what you're saying about following instructions and doing what people ask. I think what you really need to do is exceed expectations. Okay, somebody asks you, “Hey, can you do four or five tracks by the end of this month?” You say yes, and then send them six or seven, and do it by the end of next week. Of course, following the instructions as well. You know, that kind of thing. It's exceeding the expectations. And it works with collaborators. It’s making the other party's job as easy as possible. If you make their job easy, they're going to come back to you over and over again. I work with a vocalist, I say, “Just send me your raw takes. I don't need you to edit it. I don't need you to tune it. If you want to tell me I like this section and I like this section, so comp that together. Cool.” So, you concentrate on getting your performance. Send me the tracks, I'll do the editing, that kind of thing. It makes their job easier. So that makes them call me back.
I had a publisher who asked me for some Hip-Hop tracks. I sent him a few, and he said, “These are perfect, but I think the hand claps are a little too loud on all of them. So can you, can you turn them down?” And I didn't think the hand claps were too loud, because if I thought they were too loud, then I would have turned them down before I sent it in, in the first place, right” So, but here's what I did. I turned the handclaps down, I remixed all the tracks, and I sent it back to him, and I wrote myself a little note. This person thinks my handclaps are too loud, so in the next batch of songs that he wanted, I made the hand claps quieter than I thought they should be. And then he said, “These are great!” Nothing about hand claps, right? So, you know, that's a very detailed thing, but that's kind of the little important thing to do to make the other party's job as easy as possible. And then they will keep coming back to you.
I couldn't agree more, Matt, I know that you're inherently shy (said jokingly) and it’s very hard for you to come out of your shell. Personal relationships… this guy (points to Matt) sent me a Christmas card. We talk several times, three, four times a year, probably on the phone. We exchange the occasional text or email. But, he sent me a Christmas card with a copy of his first sizable quarterly check, and it puts such a smile on my face that the card with that copy of the check is thumbtacked to the wall next to my desk. You're that guy who actually thinks, “This will put a smile on Michael's face.” How do you do that with 50 libraries? Is it a giant pain in the butt to be that guy that thinks about them, that you send them a Christmas card, or, you know, a little Christmas box of chocolate or whatever. You know, does that stuff matter to the libraries?
Matt Vander Boegh: It does, but so let me clarify something really quickly. When I say I've got music in 50 libraries, doesn't mean I have exceedingly great relationships with all 50 because maybe I have like 10 tracks here. I know there's one library that I’ve got one single track in okay, you know this one.
There are probably about 10 who are my core libraries, and those 10 get Christmas cards. Every year. They get invited to special moments in my life. I fill them in on what's going on when we're in person together, talking music is the last thing we talk about. Like one of my best friends, a guy named Chuck. Chuck is one of the other first guys I met at TAXI. He also owns a library. We've become really best friends over the past eight or nine or whatever, years, and so much that we go on a cruise together every year, just like our annual Matt and Chuck cruise, and we get on this boat and act like drunken idiots, just like we do here. But what shocks people… So I just did a 10 track album with a co-writer that I'd never worked with before, but he's a really good guy who hasn't had a whole lot of traction in this industry. So, I wanted to do him a solid, and I sent the tracks to Chuck. I was like, “Hey, do you think he could use this?” And Chuck said, “Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I could definitely use that. But I'm really backlogged right now. Tell the guy that it'll be a few months until I can get to it.” Okay, so me, I'm on to other things. Completely forgotten about it. And then this guy, over the course of time is like, “Hey, Matt, have you talked to Chuck yet?” Oh, no. Well, I mean, I have, but I haven't talked about your music. Sorry, but I'll be going on a cruise with him next week, and then I went on a cruise. We never once talked about music, not once! And that's the kind of relationship that I think you really want to build with people. It’s a friendship. It's not like, “What can you do for me? And let me tell you all about what I do, and how can I help you?”
“You guys are doing the right thing by being here [at the Road Rally], because you're going to meet these library owners in-person. You're not just a faceless name on an email, because that doesn't mean anything. But meeting someone in-person does.”
And I think that's the most important thing for me; is just having a good relationship. That's not a business relationship. I don't really do business that well, but I will tell you one story of a guy who's probably my number one library right now. I’m pretty much doing everything for him, because he gets my music in shows immediately, and that's a rarity. But last year and the year before, the guy set for Christmas sent me a bottle of whiskey—like top shelf—just showed up on my door. Didn't even tell me he was doing it. It just showed up. What's this from so and so? Open it up. Oh God no, this is awesome, so I keep feeding him music, right? And this is the same thing that Mason was talking about in a panel he was on yesterday, as he was talking about, okay, you got two great songs. Both of them would be perfect. Which one are you going to choose? And this is his words, “I'm going to choose the song where I know the person and I have a relationship because I want to help them.” If he has to choose between two great pieces of music that both work in the scene —everything is equal—the relationship overtakes all, and it's like you can't overstate the power of a good relationship. And you guys are doing the right things by being here, because you're going to meet these library owners in person. You're not just a faceless name on an email, because that doesn't mean anything. But meeting someone in person does.
But you know, so much of life is not about the business that you are chasing. I guess that's the moral of the story. And I try never let, never let business overtake a conversation. It's not what I lead with. It's a side note, and it's worked for me. I don't guarantee success for any of you. I'm not recommending this. It's just worked for me.
“Our job is to write music, of course, and to make it as easy as possible for music supervisors and library owners to use our music. You want to be the person that they go to all the time, because you've simplified the stream from your music to them.”
Clearly, it's worked pretty well. John, how do you feel about the relationship thing, professional etiquette, and delivering more than what’s expected. Do you agree with all that? And do you practice all of that?
John Pearson: Yeah, absolutely. So, I do send Christmas cards in most cases, and usually a little gift basket. It depends on if somebody has gotten me, like a really solid placement, they get a bigger gift basket [audience laughter].
So, to me, our job is to write music, of course, and to make it as easy as possible for music supervisors and library owners to use our music. You want to be the person that they go to all the time, because you've simplified the stream from your music to them. So, your work-for-hire documents need to be in order. I was talking to a couple people at a One-to-One mentor session, and they didn't know what a work-for-hire was, or they didn't have it for their music.
Thank God they came to the Rally!
Yeah, yeah! You need to know what a work-for-hire is first of all, and you need to get that for every musician if you're using outside musicians or vocalists. You need to have that for all your songs. Because when, when somebody ultimately signs your song, they're going to say—and this is happening a lot more. “I need to have the work-for-hire for the vocalist.” And you're like, I got to go find that vocalist. And you know, work-for-hire releases all the royalties to you, so you can assign them—at least the sync fee—so you can do your splits, but you need to have that signed. And metadata, as Patty mentioned, is having your metadata following the directions from the library. Because I think I'm in about 25 catalogs, and I think all 25 have different spreadsheets. They ask for something a little bit different each one, and you just have to follow those directions and make sure you double check your spelling. Make sure you're making it as easy as possible to get your music out there…
And get the money back to you!
Yes, yes! You make sure that you're tagging all your stuff correctly so the keywords actually describe your track, so you have a better chance of having your music used. And that stuff helps the relationships grow and grow. And a case in point: I live in Nashville. It's a town of writers. All my co writers are TAXI members. I don't use I don't co-write with anybody from Nashville unless they're a TAXI member. And it's, it's weird,
Jim Thacker: I'm the exact same. Yeah, no co-writes with Non-TAXI members. Isn't that funny?
And yet, there are still people in Nashville who still think TAXIs a scam. I think that's so funny.
John Pearson: I’ve gotten in so many arguments with people because they don't understand what TAXI does. And, you know, Jim and I are both Nashville guys, and we met in the line out here in LA at the TAXI Road Rally. It's just so funny, but this is where you find the people that you build, the relationships with. One of the really good libraries that feeds a lot of music to The Young and Restless on CBS. I met her here!
So that publisher emailed me and said, “Can you take the clap track out of this and replace it with another percussion instrument?” I immediately did that, sent the song back, and she thought it was perfect. It was on The Young and Restless about a week later. And it got used, like a couple times that week.
Another case in point; I'm at the airport, ready to get on a plane to come out here, I get an email from another publisher. “Hey, we got a nibble on this. This show wants to use your song. It's like, cool. It's a song that I co-wrote with Greg Carrozza, Becky Kettleson, who's another TAXI member that I've never met. We've done three collections together.
Has she ever been to a Rally?
John Pearson: She's got like, 27 kids, so…
Well, there's a good reason to come to the Rally! [audience laughter]
She's busy. She's got a large family. I'm exaggerating, but anyway, a publisher reaches out to me, and I'm sitting at the airport, and I emailed back and said, “Hey, we'll get those lyrics to you,” because they needed the lyrics. “I'll transcribe it when I get to my next stop.” Becky was copied on the email. She reached out and got the lyrics to the publisher within about an hour or two. That's the way to build a relationship. Give them what they want immediately, if you can, and if you can't, let them know you received the information and you're on it, just in one way or another. But that's how you build a relationship. To me, that’s being the person that they want to keep coming back to.
Being that person, the one they want to keep coming back to really sums up the whole thing. And the timing is perfect because we’ve got to wrap this up and get the next panel going. But man, what an amazing group of people you are. You guys inspire me, and I hope you inspire everybody else in this room. Jim Thacker, Patty Boss, Greg Carrozza, Matt Vander Boegh, and John Pearson, thank you guys. That was awesome!