Interviewed by Michael Laskow
Live at the TAXI Road Rally, November 4, 2022
Let’s talk about casting for a minute. It’s a word that doesn’t get used as much as it did 15 years ago in the publishing world, but casting is basically what film and TV people do with a brief in pop songwriter world, any songwriter world, casting is “who would this be good for?” Not unlike a casting agent for actors and actresses. So as part of the process, when you have a writer come in and you hear something amazing, is your mind immediately going down kind of a list of which artists the song would be good for?
Sure. I think it depends on the moment, and I’m very in the moment. So, if a writer comes in and I hear something that I love right away I’m going to pitch it right there. I don’t like to send big folders. As a publisher, we pitch a lot to record labels and to music supervisors. I don’t send big folders; I like personal relationships. So, if I hear something that I love I’m going to text it to that A&R, and I’m going to say, “Hey, I think this is really great, because I’m not sending you something every week. I’m not sending you six songs in an email inbox.” It’s way more personal to me. I feel really thankful that I’m at a company where it’s not quantity, it’s quality. They also care about great relationships, so I want an A&R to listen to it right then. So, if I’m not sending them a hundred songs every week, then I know that they’re going to listen, and usually they’ll get back to me right away with feedback.
So that’s kind of how I pitch. And then sometimes there are songs where it’s like, I love this, I don’t know where this is going to go yet, but I’m just going to wait, I’m going to sit on it. And I have writers that I’ve worked with… A guy that I met about three years ago and we had been talking and building a relationship, and I actually signed him this year after getting to know this person for two and a half years, listening to their music, pitching their music, and it just seemed like nothing was going to happen, and I know that they were kind of getting discouraged. But I never gave up, I never forgot. I thought this person was absolutely amazing. They didn’t have a lot of huge cuts, but they just blew me away. And I think it’s been so wonderful to watch their career flourish and to go to bat for them. It’s easy to get the writers that have the hit records; we’ve got a lot of people that have hit records. It’s really easy to get them in the room if they have the names. It’s great. But when you have to talk to someone and say, “No, you’ve got to trust me on this one; I’ve got to get this person in there; you’re going to love them; take a meeting.” Now I’m pushy for other people the same way that I was pushy for myself.
There have to be times when a writer hits a dry spill and they come in and they keep presenting you with stuff and you’re being honest and saying, “It’s just not happening, just not happening.” How hard is it to end a relationship with a writer because you feel like they’ve peaked? And in their mind, it’s like, “I can come back.” And in your mind, it’s like, “I don’t think so.” Is it hard to be a businessperson and make tough decisions like that now being that your soul is that of a creative person, and now you’re on the other side of the desk having to make those tough decisions. Do you think that being a creative person has grown your heart as a businessperson?
Definitely. I think it’s… When you talked about Katy Perry earlier, the first deal didn’t work out, but those weren’t her people, that wasn’t the right time. And then she found the right people and became who she was. And sometimes I think relationships end, but it doesn’t mean that it’s over for the writer, it just means that… To me, it’s always one big circle in this industry, you’re never really ending or quitting anything, because you’re just going to keep running into the same people. But I always like to think that hopefully I can inspire you in some way with collaboration. And if we can’t get to the point of inspiration there’s probably somebody else out there who may inspire you more, who you may work with better or you may just need a whole change. It’s hard to say, but I think it’s just that there’s no right or wrong in this. I think even though it’s difficult to make those decisions sometimes, there’s always somebody kind of better waiting in the wings. That’s how I look at it.
“Even if it’s 25 views, you’ve got to start somewhere.”
A lot of people would love to know the secret sauce, the shortcut. What’s that one thing that I’m missing that has prevented me from having a hit record? Is there a secret sauce? Is there a shortcut?
Ahh, you know what? No, no, there isn’t! I really like to encourage people to put their music out. I think that the space that we’re living in right now, I love that creative people can write a song and just put it on the Internet. You can put it on DistroKid or TuneCore or CD baby; however, if you want to release it, you can, because there’s an audience. I love that it’s direct-to-consumer and all you have to do is try. I feel like sometimes people will hold onto songs and think, “No, this is so good, if I can just get it in this person’s hands, or in that person’s hands, or this person’s hands.” And the truth is, there could be somebody out there. You could have one fan right now waiting to show your song to someone else. I feel like everybody has an advantage because you can put out your own music. And I also say, don’t wait for a record label or don’t wait for the photo shoot or “I’ve got to get the perfect artwork.” I don’t think any of those things matter. I think that people are finding music all the time. So, I just encourage people to put their music out and don’t be afraid, because waiting for someone to hear it when the whole world could hear it, you just never know who’s going to pick it up. I mean, you go to YouTube all the time and there are people that have thousands, hundreds of thousands of views and no promotion, no marketing—or even a thousand views—but it’s like you got to start somewhere. Even if it’s 25 views, you’ve got to start somewhere.
I think that you should write a book on networking, because that is such a big part of the industry. I can’t think of anybody I’ve met in my entire career that does it as easily as you do it. I was going to say artfully, but that’s not the right word. It just comes naturally to you, and you sparkle when you’re doing it. When you’ve been in my office on the phone, you get a kick out of getting that, that you got through. I got a yes, we’re gonna have a meeting. Nobody really teaches that; you should write a book.
You know what? I appreciate that and thank you for the applause. I had a telemarketing job when I was in college also, and I think I may have learned a lot from that too. You just get somebody; it’s just capturing somebody, I think. But I really, really appreciate those kind words. But really, it’s being yourself, you know, just being yourself at all times. That’s half the battle in this business.
Do you guys in the audience want to ask some questions? Anybody who’s got a question, come out to the center aisle and we’ll do it from there.
Audience member: My question is how do people get their foot in the door for you to listen to their music?
MB: Well, honestly, the best way is to have music out there. That is the number one thing again. So, Spotify. I think releasing music, you can send the links when you’re waiting for somebody to download, you’ve got the Dropbox and the demos, much different than when somebody can go to Spotify or any of the streaming platforms. The music’s got to be out there. And I know that you’re like, “But how do I get it to you?” Then that’s when you can do the networking when you have the music out, because somebody’s going to click on it, and those are also clicks for you and potentially money. So put music out, and then reach out to people and ask them to listen.
“So having your songs released is really for a traditional publisher, not so much TV and film or advertisement, but a traditional publisher—Sony, Universal, Warner. They want to see that your songs are released, and they want to see how they’re doing.”
You know, something you and I have never spoken about. Now that people can put their music out there, and they’re doing it through CD Baby or TuneCore, any of the aggregators, they will frequently check the boxes that ask, “Would you like us to try and monetize your music? And you check the box for CD Baby Pro or something, and none of those companies are doing anything immoral, unethical or illegal, but people don’t understand that they just checked a box saying, be my publisher. And then they pitch it through TAXI, and it gets forwarded to a production music library, which is also a publisher. And these poor people at the libraries are starting to get really upset because... We had one client reach out and say that 60% of the music on the playlist we sent him, had already been published. And you know what? Most of those writers didn’t even know that they were published. We could talk about that one for hours over dinner some night. But that’s a thing that didn’t used to happen back when you were still part of TAXI’s A&R team, and it’s common now.
MB: It’s true, yes. Some of the platforms have added that, and you do want to read the fine print. But yeah, if you are just getting started, even if it’s SoundCloud, because it’s a different platform for revenue. It’s different than TuneCore or DistroKid or CD Baby where they’re collecting. But yeah, you do have options and that is a very good point. Very good point!
Hi, Michelle. I’m Robert from Santa Barbara. If I want to put 10 or 20 or 30 tracks out on DistroKid, TuneCore or whatever, I don’t check the box, so they are not published. Does that then disqualify those tracks from being forwarded or signed by a publisher later on? In other words, have those tracks then been released and they can’t be signed anywhere else, given that I did not check the box? Does that question make sense? I guess it’s about this word “released.” I see in a lot of TAXI listings: “These tracks can’t be released anywhere.” Okay, well, did I release them, even if I didn’t check the box? That’s my question.
Michael Laskow: We have a couple of situations. We have some music libraries that don’t want stuff that’s been released, because they worry that the box has been checked, and it’s just easier to say not released. And there are people that I’ve run into for TV commercials where they don’t want anything that’s already been out there. And I’m never clear, I’ve never gotten a good answer from anybody why that is. Do you have any idea?
MB: Sure. You know, I think it depends on the ad. If it’s a really big ad, they want exclusivity. They want something that’s fresh and something that’s new. And it’s such a Catch-22, because in order for them to choose you, they need to hear some of your music. So, on the one hand… And I want to clear this up too, because you were asking about, can a song be published if it’s released? And everything that we sign, for the most part, is released. That’s how we know how much money is coming in, what we can offer you, what kind of work that you’re doing, who is listening to this. So having your songs released is really for a traditional publisher, not so much TV and film or advertisement, but a traditional publisher—Sony, Universal, Warner. They want to see that your songs are released, and they want to see how they’re doing.
A lot of people will do this thing where they’ll put the song up right before the day of the meeting, and it’s like, “You just put this up yesterday, so we can’t really get a feel of how long this has been up.” But I would say if you have a lot of songs or you’re creating a lot, it’s okay to put a few of them out into the universe just so that people can point to those and say, “Aha, I see what you’re doing; that’s great. And I want to hear more of it. Play me some unreleased music.”
Michael Laskow: So proof of concept plays into the “signability” factor. “Oh, look what you’ve done on your own,” which has always been the case, especially in the record side industry. “Artists, can you draw a crowd to a show in every town you go to?” that sort of thing. So that said, if I picked up the phone and called you and said, “Michelle, I’ve heard the best song that has hit my desk in 10 years,” and you heard it and loved it. Will you still sign something even if it hasn’t done numbers on the Internet or elsewhere?
MB: Yes. 100% Yes.
Hey there. Good morning, I’m Paul from Palm Springs. Nice to meet you. Just a question in terms of networking. When, aside from today and this weekend, when we go back home, how do we make initial contact with someone that we can maybe get a meeting with, or generate an email conversation to just start that conversation musically?
MB: Sure. I’ve done panels before—LinkedIn, social media. I reach out and I get back to people, and I think a lot of people do. You never know what you’re going to hear or who you’re going to connect with. And I’ll tell you something, I did another conference—I won’t say which one—but I met so many people and you’d be shocked by the number of people that emailed me and said, “Oh, I’ll send music later,” and never did! And I was so surprised by that, because I think everybody’s thinking, “Oh, I’ve got to get my really good stuff together; I’ve got to get my stuff together.” And then you get [somebody’s attention], you want to hook them in right then. I think it’s just a matter of reaching out, not just to me. Look, not everybody is going to respond. And even when I—Michael, you were right—when I started doing TV and film, I went on LinkedIn and reached out to a lot of people, and I would say maybe out of 10 people, only two or three got back to me. But those two or three people, we did so much great work together. And I proved myself to the point where the other six came around, five or six came around. So, I think it’s just a matter of connecting with people any way you can.
My name is Daniel Barnes, and I am from Riverside, California. I am 64 years old. I’m a smooth-jazz writer and collaborate with R&B. My question is, sometimes I feel like it’s too late for me because I’m 64 now. I’ve been writing for about 25, 30 years, and how do I get a flash drive in your hand?
MB: Just being in this room right now, and Michael said it best: that it’s not just me, he has other really great connections, and this is not a plug for TAXI. But there aren’t a lot of companies like TAXI, I do want to point that out, that give you briefs and that give you direction and give you listings and examples but also feedback. So, I think this is a very unique company, a very unique situation. And there haven’t been a lot of competitors after all these years that I think have been able to sustain themselves and do what you’ve achieved, Michael. I just want to point that out. It is a big deal. It is. And when people are standing up to show they’ve had placements, you can see that this platform works. So, I do want to make sure that I am plugging TAXI, because it does work. And when I was listening, I’ll tell you, there were songs that even when I left TAXI, I still loved those songs. They were still on my iTunes, and if something came up for them, I would remember them. There’s a lot of opportunity here, but there’s a lot of opportunity in this room to collaborate with each other. And no, I don’t think it’s ever too late, because melody and lyrics, those are timeless and those are forever. So don’t give up.
Well, I think that’s a great way to end this. It really boils down to don’t give up, and so many people do. It’s hard not to be discouraged when you’re constantly being rejected. But I look at you, Michelle, you are the paragon of not giving up. When I got a notification that there was some new post on LinkedIn, and I saw the announcement about you getting the job at Roc Nation, and I was so incredibly proud of you in that moment. I feel like I’m watching one of my daughters grow up and accomplish things in life, and you’ve done it. So, congratulations. I mean that from my heart.
Ladies and gentlemen, Michelle Bell. Thank you, Michelle.
MB: This is awesome. Thanks Michael.