Interviewed by Michael Laskow
Live at the TAXI Road Rally, November 4, 2022
What is it like to enter the room with a superstar the first time as a relatively new writer, and it’s your job to write a song with them? Is it intimidating? Invigorating?
You know, we’re all people. I think at first, it’s like, “Ahh,” and then it’s like, “Oh, you don’t look like you look on TV.” You just realize that this is just another human being. And then you have a conversation, and then before you know it, your brain just forgets for a second that this is Jennifer Lopez or that this is Britney Spears. You know, I think once you get into the groove, there is such a vulnerability that you share between that person, and whether they’re writing or not writing, they’re bearing their soul too, because they’re taking on my words and my viewpoint or my thoughts, and there’s sort of this marrying of their ideas and my ideas.
So, I think it’s overwhelming for a minute, but then once you kind of get to know someone a little bit, there is this sacred space of creativity that all creatives have, especially when you’re collaborating with someone. There were times when I was working with Jennifer where we would work all day and then we’d go out that night, and the producer that we were working with at that time was driving the car, and then watching people just sort of react to her, it’s like, “Oh yeah, that’s right. You’re Jennifer Lopez.” And then going home that night and seeing her on TV or in a film, it's like, “Okay, I was just at your house today; this is no big deal at all.” There are some pinching-myself moments, but I think it’s just creating that safe space.
I’m pretty sure it was you that once told me, “People have no idea how down-to-earth and what a nice person Britney Spears really is.” Was that you?
Yeah.
“I think in order to have longevity in any creative industry, there are highs and lows, there are ups and downs.”
So now, once you got to that level and you’re writing with major stars, and for major stars, and getting big cuts, selling lots of records, was it rosy all the time, or did you have setbacks? Did you have times where you thought, “Okay, I’ve had my 15 minutes, and now it’s over.”
Yeah, I think the roller-coaster is better than the straight to the top and straight to the bottom, right? I think in order to have longevity in any creative industry, there are highs and lows, there are ups and downs. I definitely had moments where it was like, “Aye!!” I was either uninspired or there are always new writers, always new producers, always new people coming in. I think it’s just staying true to yourself.
I had a conversation with an A&R person who works really closely with Pharrell. I’m sure he’d be okay with me telling you the story. But there was a moment where he had made some changes in his job, and he called Pharrell and said, “Nobody’s picking up the phone for me, and nobody’s talking to me.” And Pharrell said, “You know, we go away, we come back. There are just highs and lows in this thing.” And he said, “I’m Pharrell and I still sometimes feel like I’m not always doing every single thing that I can.” And right after that, those two got together and they created “Happy,” which ended up being one of Pharrell’s biggest songs.
Max Martin had a number of years, where he just wasn’t ruling the radio waves. And then, when he did come back—it was maybe five or six years [later]—he came back and has probably had the longest run of any pop producer, I would say, in music history. He has definitely solidified himself as one of the greatest of all time.
I think it’s these stories that are inspiring. That was what was inspiring for me, watching somebody have a comeback, so to speak, right? And I think everybody has to keep going, because no matter how big you are—even the biggest stars can feel like, especially these days—the songs come out and then they are #1 for like a week. So, I think that everybody has those highs and lows, but when you have the consistency in the long run, that’s what really counts.
“I needed to really listen to the radio, and I needed to really listen for artists that I just liked, not because they were on the charts, or not trying to figure out who wrote the songs, but just because I liked music.”
Let’s talk about entitlement. My observation from being in the business for several decades is that many musicians have a sense of entitlement, and that in the today’s connotation of that word, people feel like, “I really, really want this; therefore, I should have it.”
But, just because somebody wants it doesn’t necessarily mean that God or the universe or whatever is going to bless them with their dream. How do you think that people can get past that feeling of entitlement?
I think it’s how you measure success. For me, just living in New York is success, coming from Ohio; being in the right room, success; or just getting someone on the phone, success. I don’t think I ever looked at it like this is a destination; I guess I’ve always looked at it like a journey. And I think the entitlement is really hard, because it’s really just insecurities. I think that creative people, we can be very sensitive people. All creatives are really sensitive about our work, about how people perceive our work. It’s hard to take criticism sometimes, so I think the entitlement is really just “What if?” What if this doesn’t happen for me, or what am I supposed to do? And I think that success for some people is being able to play a gig, do what you love, and maybe you’re playing at the local piano bar, but you have a residency there. You know, I don’t know that it’s always getting to the big stage or playing the arenas; I think it’s just how you measure success, really.
How do you measure success?
Every little step. You know, sitting here with you right now is really surreal to me, because I feel like… I mean, look, TAXI… When we talk about the highs and lows, there were some moments where I really needed to take a second and love music again, and I think the time that I was working with you at TAXI was a time where I was pretty tapped out and uninspired as a songwriter, and critiquing other songs… It’s really hard to tell somebody what they’re doing wrong and then go back to the studio and make the same mistakes. So [working in the A&R department at TAXI] gave me some time to really listen to other people’s music, and I kind of stopped writing for a minute. But it also gave me a chance to hear other things that I love. I think this is how I really became a great A&R person was critiquing songs, but then also making playlists of… You know, being able to give people examples and references. I needed to really listen to the radio, and I needed to really listen for artists that I just liked, not because they were on the charts, or not trying to figure out who wrote the songs, but just because I liked music.
So, during that time with TAXI, for me it was a learning experience. It was a reinvigorating of my love for music, really. So, I’m really thankful. I couldn’t have imagined that I would have done all that work with you and then be sitting here as the vice president of Roc Nation; that to me is the success. But it’s all those little increments of time, and even then, there were things like bringing in listings or introducing people like music supervisors to TAXI. I think those are the steps, going from critiquing to bringing opportunities. I count that as success.
I think it’s kind of mind-blowing. We’ve got 966 chairs in this room; I would say 95% of them are full right now. I wonder how many of you guys have had feedback from this lady who is now vice-president of Roc Nation. And the funny part is, people say, “Oh, TAXI, they hire interns to screen them.”
You know, you’re not the first person to say what you just said to me. Katy Perry was a screener at TAXI for probably a year, year and a half, something like that, before she was famous. And she was doing Gospel, because she grew up in a family where both of her parents were gospel artists and they played gigs on the road and she went with them. And then one day she said to us, “You know, I can do Pop as well.” But she had just been dropped by her first label. She had a record deal and got dropped before the record came out, and she was at a low point in her life. She called me about four years ago and said, “You know, I never really, really thanked you when I left, but I had to rent a rent-a-wreck to drive there to screen all the time.” And she said in an interview, I believe in Billboard, “Yeah, I did A&R at a company called TAXI for a while, but I felt like I wasn’t qualified.” And for the same reason you just said, which is, “If I’m having these problems—same ones they’re having—who am I to be telling them?” And somebody took that quote from Billboard and said, “See, I told you, TAXI has screeners who aren’t qualified.”
Well, that’s definitely not true. There were a lot of screeners that I actually became friends with, and even that is networking at TAXI. I think that brought a lot of opportunities, too, to inspire each other.
Yeah, I’ve noticed that. There are so many things that have happened with TAXI that I never would have guessed when I had the idea and wrote the original business plan, and the networking amongst screeners is one of them. There are screeners that have become friends for life, and they collaborate musically outside of TAXI. So, it’s pretty cool.
“If you really want to sell the song to somebody, I prefer no drums at all, because then it’s just timeless and classic.”
Speaking of you being a screener, do you remember from your days of being a screener that there is a percentage of songwriters that understand song form and they can write good lyrics, but their songs sound dated and not contemporary or modern enough to be competitive in today’s industry. Sometimes we put out a listing looking for singer/songwriter stuff and we get in a lot of stuff that sounds like James Taylor. Great songwriter, one of the greatest of all time, but James isn’t having hits today.
As a publisher, you must give directions to your writers. What advice would you give them to help them to sound not just contemporary for today but contemporary a year and a half from now, because as you and I know, any song that somebody decides to cut today, it’s gonna be a year and a half before that thing has a chance to really come to life out in public. So how do you give feedback to people and help them be on the cutting edge?
Sure. You know, I think one of the things that we found during COVID when the world stopped, when people couldn’t get together with TV and film—I’ve been saying this a lot—production stopped. But music is the one thing that didn’t stop, because you can do it by yourself at home, or you can send files to each other. But even if there were no more electricity, someone could use a guitar, a piano and your voice. And I think that melodies and lyrics and just instruments… everything else is production. The bells and the whistles and the laser beams and all the sounds, that’s what changes the production style. The drums are always going to be the thing that makes the difference. But it also makes a difference between genres. You can have a piano song with just a voice and piano and a beautiful melody, and someone can put a mandolin over it and it’s considered country. Or somebody can put some 808s, and then it’s R&B or hip-hop.
So, I think the production…what never changes is a beautiful lyric and a beautiful melody. That’s just going to always be a standard, because that’s what people sing if they’re just in the car and you’re just thinking about a song that you love, then all of a sudden in the background like all the drums don’t come in. So, I think with production, in order to stay current, it just starts with a great song, with a great lyric and melody, and everything else is just… It depends on the genre that you want to produce for. And I think it’s looking at your contemporaries and saying, okay, this is what’s happening here, but what’s authentic to me, what’s my strong suit and going with that? But I always say no drums. If you really want to sell the song to somebody, I prefer no drums at all, because then it’s just timeless and classic.
You know, that’s a really important point, because it used to be that you could hear a guitar-vocal; the industry would cut a guitar-vocal. Now it’s very production-based, and demos today are essentially records. But we do have people that still run listings with TAXI where they say, “I’m more than happy to hear just a guitar-vocal or a piano-vocal, because they can hear how the production should be. Yet, when you see people win Grammys or ASCAP Awards or BMI Awards, like eight people trot up to the stage. Eight co-writers on a song; it’s like that dude did the hi-hat, somebody else did the 808. But everybody has a little piece of the construction, you know. There’s the plumber, there’s the electrician. Is it possible in today’s industry for a soul practitioner, if you will, songwriter to get a song cut, or do you have to be part of a posse or a camp or be hyperconnected?
Sure. Yeah, I think record labels would love to see somebody [who owns] 100% of a song. We don’t get a lot of those as much anymore. You’re right, the new thing that I’ve been getting a lot are loops. So, loop makers will come up with a great riff. It’s just a guitar or piano loop, and they pass that around to producers. And that’s how a lot of times you’ll get a lot of names on it, and then some people are just really collaborative, or there’s a sample, or it could be any number of reasons why there are a lot of names. But, you know, I think that the industry welcomes just talent who are one or two writers, or just one person. That’s very rare, so I feel like those people definitely have a greater chance sometimes than a person who has eight names on their song.
That’s good to know. Collaboratively, walking into a room with a group of people versus if you and I were to sit down, you know, you have those raw, soul-exposing moments; your story, your authenticity, all that stuff goes into the writing. I would imagine that it gets incrementally harder with every additional person in the room, especially if you’ve got like an 18-year-old kid who is really good with beats and he’s constantly going, “Yeah, man. You could do this beat here.” Do you think that that has denigrated the quality of songwriting, that it’s become almost factory-like and assembled, more like building a high-rise or something, then that raw soul-bearing authenticity that one or two writers will do?
Wow. It’s interesting, that’s a good question. I think that comes back to production, because at the end of the day the lyric and melody are really what stands. And then, I think that everything that’s built around that can always be reproduced, can always be placed in different genres. But I think that the heart and soul of a song is always going to be what we are singing to. We’re singing the lyrics and we’re singing the melody and everything else is… You know, it’s wonderful to build a song, but at the end of the day it’s always going to come down to that.
Don’t miss the next part of this interview in next month’s edition!