Interviewed live during TAXI’s Road Rally, 2021
By Michael Laskow
Let’s talk about pacing for a moment. I was interviewing Mary Ramos, who’s the music supervisor for all the Quentin Tarantino stuff, which has got to be the most challenging music-supe job in the world, and fun at the same time. He knows what he wants, you know, and uses a lot of old scores from old films, whether they’re old spaghetti Westerns or Blaxploitation films. He must have a photographic memory, because if you look at the music credits in his pictures, like who the hell even knows that that piece of music even exists? It’s not something you’re going to find in a music library unless you already know that scene from a spaghetti Western from 62 years ago.
All that said, I complimented Mary, because I watched a lot of her work before I interviewed her. Something that she does really well that other music supervisors will use as a bit of a throwaway: If there is background source music in one of her scenes—for instance, two people in a car going somewhere, and the drive becomes frantic because they’re running late or they’re being chased or something—they will stick any old thing on the car radio. They just need wallpaper there, or some sort of ambience in the car, because they (the characters) would probably have the radio on. Mary Ramos is really, really particular and really good at matching—even though it’s background source and you may only hear it for 10 seconds and it’s really low in the mix—she’s really good about matching the pace [of the music to the scene’s pace]. And she’s really good at matching the lyrics to the storyline, even though it probably doesn’t matter. But by doing that…
That’s amazing.
Exactly, there are those times where the audience will have a visceral reaction and not even know why, and it’s because she did her job a little bit better than others might. So as an editor, it’s cool that the notes that you get back might be about pacing. Wow, there are times we have to match not only the emotion—sometimes maybe the lyric has to work in the context of the scene—but also the pacing. So I’m guessing as the editor that would be your starting point. When you’re going through listening to cues, “No, too slow—doesn’t have the energy.” And then you look for the other elements to see if they work as well.
Uh-huh, and I think something magical happens when you’re doing your job right. When you’re editing dialogue, there’s a natural rhythm to the way that people speak, and you can edit a scene without your music and then find a cue that just happens to have the same tempo as the conversation, and then you just lay the cue in, and then I don’t have to do anything to it. I can just lay the cue in, and it fits with all of the points in the conversation. And there are breaths where people in the scene are taking a breath and the cues swell at just the right moment, and it’s perfect.
I think one thing that might be helpful as people are working on compositions is to just record people talking, or listen to people talking, and listen to the speed at which people talk and use that to kind of dictate how fast or how slow your tune is gonna be.
It’s interesting. I’m thinking more about how they’re going more for scores now than using songs with lyrics. We had a little impromptu A&R meeting at the office about a week ago, and Tom—who’s our head of A&R at TAXI— we were talking about the fact that we’re seeing far less requests from music libraries for tension cues and for dramedy cues. And that’s probably generated by the fact that the overall tone of music being put in particular into reality shows has changed. So that’s cool, now I understand the whole thing full circle.
Let’s talk about cue sheets. I think every composer, every musician has had a moment where they have been watching TV and they go, “Hey, that’s my music, and it didn’t show up on my ASCAP or BMI report.” Again, for those who don’t know, a cue sheet is something that’s filled out by the editor or maybe an assistant editor that lets ASCAP and BMI know that your cue was used from this timecode number to that timecode number on this show, which episode, blah, blah, blah. And that’s how the musicians or the creators ultimately get paid. Is it more often the editor that is filling out the cue sheet, or an assistant editor? Who does that?
Well, actually this would probably be a better question for my husband, because editors typically don’t. It would probably be your post-supervisor or your post-coordinator who is working on that.
Wow. I know this isn’t your area of expertise; I’m tempted to say, “Go grab you husband.” I’m sure he doesn’t have his hair done and makeup hasn’t been done either. But he’s probably not wearing yellow, so we can’t have him on today’s show. (laughter)
I’m trying to imagine if they use some sort of audio-fingerprinting identification. How do they know that it’s this piece of music? I’m going to have to interview your husband at some point, now. How is he on camera? Is he equally as good?
Check in with us next year, next conference.
Anything that I didn’t think to ask you that you’ve mentioned in previous Rally sessions? Because I think you’re a cut above as far as editors go. You explain it so well. So please feel free to add whatever.
You’re too kind. One thing that I was thinking about as I was preparing for this is, is that as I’m listening to a cue, what will make me never ever want to work with it, or never choose it, which I think can be helpful to talk about.
“I also think that cues that use instruments that sound dated are difficult, because then the show is going to sound exactly like every other show from 10 years ago.”
We’d love to hear that!
If a cue doesn’t have a sting at the end, then that means that would be extra work for me to go in and then create something. You know, I’ve got to find my own drumbeat or my own cymbal or my own sting, and that’s too much time that I don’t have. So, if a cue doesn’t have a sting, then I’m probably not going to use it. If a cue is the same four measures just repeating for two minutes, then I’m not going to be able to use it, because it’s not dynamic and it’ll feel kind of boring as you’re listening to it and it doesn’t really go anywhere. If the key changes halfway through the cue, it’s the worst, because you’ll be editing along thinking, “OK, this cue is great, it's exactly the mood that I want and exactly the right tempo and right attitude, and I’m going to go put an explanation point at the end of my sentence.” But, oh my God, [part of] it’s in a totally different key, and it sounds like a completely different song, so I can’t use it. And I’ve had that happen multiple times, and it’s so frustrating. Then I’ve got to go back and strip it out and redo all this work that I’ve just done.
I also think that cues that use instruments that sound dated are difficult, because then the show is going to sound exactly like every other show from 10 years ago, and we’ll get a note from the network that we need to update it. Oftentimes I’m looking for cues that aren’t just [created using] synthesizers. I think that’s a good thing to think about.
I’ve noticed that I’m hearing more organic-based music with like maybe real drums, acoustic guitars, real pianos. Is that any sort of a trend, or is it just me noticing that? Where people are getting away from like really dance-y, poppy, synth-y stuff to a degree. I would say it’s probably still 70% synthesized material and 30% organic, but it feels like there’s an increase. Is that just me, or is that a thing?
I’ve noticed that as well, and I don’t know. I think it just makes episodes feel a little more upscale if you feel like, OK, that’s a real piano lick, even though it’s just amazing hip-hop. You know, it might be this really cool hip-hop beat, but if we’re going for kind of a Chicago sound, it’s gonna have that really great lyricism to it, so maybe you’ll have some real instruments in there, too.
Is hip-hop still as in demand as it has been over the last 10 years? It’s the most frequently asked-for genre we get from libraries looking for new tracks. It’s still a big thing, huh?
Yeah, for sure.
OK, I’m gonna go to the chat room here and take a couple of questions, a lot of questions actually, because we’ve still got about 24 minutes.
Audience question for Laurel: Which instruments should we avoid because they interfere with dialogue?
I would say you don’t necessarily have to be afraid of any specific instrument, but shy away from using all of the instruments at the same time. You know, if you’ve got your guitar melody going at the same time as a keys melody and synthesizers, it ends up being a lot. So don’t be afraid to have a full version of your track and, like Coco Chanel said, “Take a piece of jewelry off.” Then give us a stripped version, a light version and a drum-and-bass version. I think that would be a lot more versatile.
Engineering tip from me, and that is when you guys are doing your alt mixes or breaking out stems, keep all your faders exactly where they are. Don’t do anything except hit mute buttons, even if the level looks low on your mix buss coming out. It doesn’t matter, because if you bring that level up to adjust the overall level because you’ve taken some stuff out, when an editor gets it, they’re going to be going along, “Da, da, da…” You’ve got to keep the level the same with or without those instruments. Just a little engineering tip from an old audio-post guy.
Do editors ever add reverb?
Yes! In fact, one of the interesting things about the remote workflows that we are all experiencing now, because most of us are working from our houses, and we have to share our timelines across different things, is that we’ll have dedicated reverb tracks. So, say that I’m editing through a scene and somebody tells a really, really great joke, I’m gonna drop the cue out so that the punchline of the joke lands, and then maybe I might bring it back in for the, y’know, bah-dum sting of the cue for the reaction. So, the audience is like, “Hey, that was a joke. You should listen to the joke.” And then, when they laugh, you’re supposed to laugh. So, I will drop out that cue, and if there’s a drumbeat there, then I’ll drop that drumbeat down to the reverb track so it does a little bit of that buh-dum-shh!
“I think it’s never, never a bad idea to have different options within the same cue.”
This is a question from Jazz Stan: How big should an ending be? I’m assuming he means the stinger.
I think that there’s never a wrong way to do it. And I also think that one thing that you can do to make your track a little more of a chameleon is, don’t be afraid to be dynamic within the track and give me a couple different ending options. You know, have a couple different stings and maybe it’ll sting out and then it’ll swell back in. Then I can use that swell as an alternate intro option in another place in the cut or in a different part of the cut. Give me a version that’s really long, or give me a version that’s really short, a short period at the end of that sentence. And if you want to have a version that’s like the ellipsis, where you’re building to something and you’re hanging on it for a moment, then that might be a moment that I can use in a cut, too. I think it’s never, never a bad idea to have different options within the same cue, because then I can just sit there with that same cue and use it in multiple moments and in multiple different scenarios, as opposed to having only one option.
“So, I’m looking at the waveform to see if it gets big, or does it get tiny? Is it the same all the way through? And that can help me identify where a cue can be used.”
I wish every music library owner that I know would watch this. Because, there are some who ask us for what they think you need, but I think that some of them don’t spend enough time talking to the people who are actual the end users. You’re describing stuff that they would never ask us for—some of what you just mentioned—and they should be, because it makes your job easier [as an editor]. And if they’re known as a library that makes your job easier, then you’re going to default to starting with their music and they make more money.
Do you check the file in a program that shows the dynamics of the cue? You and I talked a little bit about this in a back-and-forth prior to the Rally. I had you confused with a music supervisor friend of mine. I had a question in here that asked Laurel, “Do you ever look at waveforms?” and she said, “No I really don’t, but…”
Well, so I had that conversation with you, and then I went to work this week and realized that I do do this. I just really needed to think about it for a minute. When I click on a cue, I will bring the waveform up to see… Especially like right now I’m working with a lot of dramatic orchestral tension cues, things that come in with really big hits and stop downs. So, I’m looking at the waveform to see if it gets big, or does it get tiny? Is it the same all the way through? And that can help me identify where a cue can be used.
Here’s another question from a viewer: When finished with a scene, does she hand off the work still editable [so that] the names of the tunes are still visible to the post supervisor?
Yes. Again, I’m not sure exactly what the post supervisor’s workflow is. Now I know for next year’s Rally that I need to have a conversation with my husband about it. But yes, in Avid you can see the names of every file that you are putting in, so I can see every cliff name, every piece of information about each music file in the entire edit. And after it goes to me, it goes to a professional mixer, who is going to do a whole sweetening pass.
Audience question: I’ve heard my music placed very quietly behind dialogue, almost inaudible. What factors lead you to the level of the music versus the dialogue?
I’ve sat in on a few mix sessions, and it’s different for everybody. When I’m editing, I really want to hear music. I’m bopping along to it; it’s helping me drive the scene, so I tend to mix it up a little hotter. But I think that when you get to full mix, your EP (Executive Producer) is gonna say, “I couldn’t hear what they were saying,” or “I missed the point of what was happening there.” And so, they’re gonna want to make sure that the dialogue is the star of the scene.
Don’t miss the final part of this incredibly awesome interview in next month’s TAXI Transmitter!